NIL Undressed

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Ryan Schachtner

14 May 2024

39m 15s

Round Two With FSU and Kris White



Dr. Kristopher White is the ultimate athlete development success story, like the ultimate story of using athletic skills to achieve and help others achieve success. Dr. Kristopher White, born into a not ideal situation, saw football as a way to success. In high school he was the team captain and played QB, running back, wide receiver, and linebacker which earned him a shot at Kent State University where he played WR and pursued the NFL dream. He finished up his Master’s degree and was named master’s student of the year his last year at Kent State. He then became the lead athletic academic mentor at a power 5 university, earned his PhD from one of the premier programs in the country, won teacher of the year his first year as a college professor, he’s a soon to be author and founder of athlete mentor academy and personal mentor for athletes of all sports at Florida State University. Dr. White’s insights and research is going to pave the way for athletes having life success for generations to come.


Connect with Dr. Kristopher White





Success Beyond Gameday



[00:16] Ryan: Welcome to Nil Undressed. I'm Ryan Schachner and we've got our first repeat guest. He's from down at Florida State. He was the professor of the year. He's an example for, for me and watching some of the stuff that he's been through. Champion of athletes, creating some new curriculum down there at FSU. Former Kent state football wide receiver, father, husband, all around. Just really good dude, Chris White, man. Chris, welcome back to Nil Undressed.

[00:51] Kris: Wow.

[00:51] Speaker C: Thank you so much. I needed, like, just call you in the morning and just get that good introduction. I mean, I don't feel as good this great every time until I hear, you know, what you have to talk, man.

[01:01] Ryan: You know, sometimes you got to take, you know, take account of where you've been and what you've accomplished.

[01:06] Speaker C: So, no, these intros are sensational. I appreciate it. You know, it boosts me.

[01:11] Ryan: Absolutely. That's what we're here for. That's what we're here for. You know, I alluded to it a little bit. You recently went through some health, health challenges here, right? Yeah. And you've come out clean on the other side. But every, you know, as athletes, as people in general, we're going to face challenges that are, a lot of them are unexpected. They pop up at the least opportune moment most times. So tell us a little bit about what you've been through and then how did your development as an athlete over the years, what type of, how did that play into how you approached your issues?

[01:55] Kris: Absolutely.

[01:55] Speaker C: That's a really good question. So early in August, kind of the end of July last year, I found out that was diagnosed with cancer, which was like out of the nowhere surprise. And through the time that we went through, I feel like there was a lot of growth and we talked about it before, certainly had to go through a lot of challenges. But the interesting part was I do think that athletics, and really more so my faith, which kind of sustained me through athletics as well, helped me have this mindset of just knowing that through God, we're going to beat it.

[02:31] Kris: Right.

[02:31] Speaker C: And so I was able to have a peace that surpassed understanding and a strength and that all, all glory to God. I mean, that really, truly came from the moment that I found out. Like, after maybe about 30 minutes, I prayed as soon as I got the news and my mindset shifted from being kind of like, okay, this is like a. Kind of a scary moment. You know, this is your life and in peril to like, okay, how am I going to use this to first of all glorify God, but also get a purpose out of it to, you know, try to inspire others and to try encourage others and to, you know, have a positive sort of impact from it. And so just knowing, you know, the word, you know, reading in my Bible and knowing a lot of things that I had already been through, that adversity that I kind of already been through, I knew that this was something that, you know, through God, we could accomplish. And, you know, it was a beautiful blessing. I told you this before, it sounds odd to say, but this time was truly a blessing. Like, there was a lot of spiritual growth, a lot of intellectual growth. Like I said earlier, I feel like I gained, like, ten years worth of knowledge in about six months of time, just kind of going through a lot of the things that you have to when facing, you know, that sort of adversity. Like, you're. You're broken down to the very, very most basic elements of what it is to exist and be alive. And so you have to confront realities of, you know, what. What it means to even be alive, what's. What's the purpose of life and things like that. And so that's where I obviously drew from the word and, you know, drew from God, and I felt, you know, refueled and, you know, refined through the entire process. I just, you know, it was a interesting time, you know, but to directly relate it to athletics, I think that oftentimes, you know, when you're going through even something simple as, you know, summer conditioning, right, and you're like, you know, we got four more reps. How am I going to actually get through this, these last sprints? Like, I feel like I gave it all I had.

[04:29] Kris: Right?

[04:29] Speaker C: And being able to find that grit consistently, you know, throughout your career, is something that you can use to get through adversity, something that you can use to overcome challenges that might seem impossible. And so little things like that in athletics is, you know, I think gives athletes an edge in terms of the job force or in terms of being entrepreneurs or in terms of, you know, just attacking life in general. When you reach that elite level of competition, you have to have a mindset that affords you, you know, that opportunity.

[05:03] Kris: Right.

[05:03] Speaker C: There's not too many people who are able to kind of get out there and do that on a daily basis. Like, once you make it to the collegiate level and the professional level, everybody's talented, everybody's got the skill and athletic ability. What separates you oftentimes is your mindset, and once you understand that and how to get sort of a gritty mindset or get a mindset that allows you to overcome seemingly impossible challenges. A lot of the things that you face in life become a little bit easier, right? You have that mindset that is outside of the normal civilian sort of mindset of going through life. So athletics, of course, and, you know, number one is just my faith in God and him allowing me to have that peace and that strength through that process was something that got me through and better on the better on the end of it, for sure.

[05:54] Ryan: Yeah, absolutely. And so, you know, I love what you said. It was, you know, a lot of times in athletics, whether it's, you know, spring, you know, spring practice or summer conditioning, all those sorts of things, you, you get broken down, right? You get you. The reality confronts you really quick, right? High school to college level, you are the star in high school, and now you're a freshman in college, reality hits. And so what are you going to do to overcome this situation? And that sounds like, I mean, you said it perfectly, right? I mean, that's kind of what you reverted back to that. You know, you probably had visions of, you know, summer conditioning and all that in your head and said, you know what? I got through that. I can get through it. And it's, you know, it's challenge accepted.

[06:46] Kris: Yeah. Oh, absolutely.

[06:47] Speaker C: I mean, it's a combination of that. And, you know, that first prayer that I had after finding out the news, I felt like God said that he had already ordained the victory, and the purpose of this was to glorify him. And by the grace of God, I was able to do that. But also, like, like you're saying, like, it was incredibly useful to have that mindset because it's, you know, a lot of people think it's kind of crazy to see some of these situations and you're confident in them. You're like, okay, you know, I can, I can accomplish this. I know that I'm going to win. I know I'm going to beat this. I know that I'm going to finish this rep or whatever it might be. Like, a lot of times, a lot of people might have a mindset that is, you know, pessimistic or, you know, not, you know, encouraged or not as confident about being able to accomplish those things. But you have to go into these things with the faith that, like, you know, I can do all things to Christ who strengthens me. I can do. I can accomplish this. I can accomplish the impossible. And so athletics gives you that crazy mindset, you know, oftentimes. So you need to have it, because you can't reach the impossible if you don't think that it is possible. So that's. That's where I'm at, for sure.

[07:54] Ryan: Well, and then, and then, you know, the other thing I got was you have to have kind of a. A rock, right. A cornerstone somewhere to reset. And I think for a lot of people that, you know, aren't believers or, you know, no judgments, but they can't understand. Like, just because you made that prayer and you felt that, you know, hey, he's got me. I'm going to get this. Doesn't mean you didn't have down points throughout the process.

[08:22] Speaker C: Right.

[08:23] Ryan: It wasn't just this blanket optimism that you walk through. It was still hard to deal with.

[08:29] Kris: Yeah.

[08:30] Ryan: Oh, you know, how, again, how did you. How did you use God, the prayer, all that kind of stuff? And whether, again, whether or not people believe in that, how can you leverage, you know, rocks or people that are champions for you to get through tough situations?

[08:50] Speaker C: Yeah, 100%. I mean, there was definitely a lot of challenging moments that. And I won't, you know, giving too many details with it, you know, going through something like that, there's a lot of moments where you have to really have a rock, like you're saying, and, you know, of course, like, just going back to the word and kind of getting to understand who God is, really was that rock for me. But also, I feel like he provided me with my wife, who was just incredible. I mean, the stuff that she went through during that time to provide me this stable, you know, faith based understanding, compassion and grace. I mean, she. She deserves an award, you know, I gotta. I gotta do something, you know.

[09:34] Ryan: Well, she got a shout out on here, so.

[09:36] Speaker C: There we go. There we go. Yeah, that's a good start.

[09:40] Kris: I mean, she.

[09:40] Speaker C: We just had a baby, too, so, like, she was taking care of our baby, taking care of me. Our dog actually passed away during the same time. Like, she was a real rock. So, you know, through relationships is rocks that you can have, right. Once you be able to understand what's real and what's, what's not and how to have good relationships, I think the maturity there affords you an opportunity to go back to their rock during times of challenge.

[10:09] Kris: Right.

[10:10] Speaker C: And kind of touch base, just like with God, touch base with reality and be able to say, okay, this is where I'm at, and I'm going to attack this situation with a level head. But also, I mean, truly, I mean, 100%, it was all God for me. I know I keep keep saying it, but it's like that. That was one of the main messages that I got through this time, was just going through his word and seeing all the things that at times seemed impossible for people that he was able to overcome and that, you know, it's.

[10:37] Kris: It's.

[10:37] Speaker C: It's easy for him. Like the creator of all things, this is. This is nothing for him, you know? And so being able to get back to that kind of rock there, for me was something that just allowed me to go back to, like, being positive and understanding. There's a purpose for all of this. So those are my two rocks, you know, my wife and my faith, for sure.

[10:56] Ryan: Cool, man. I appreciate you sharing, sharing all that. All right, let's talk about some sports. Right, because you were mentioning you're coming up with this new class at Florida State, and it aligns with one of the questions I wanted to ask. So this is really cool to get insight on. So we've got a lot of changes in a short amount of time, right? I mean, you obviously have name, image, and likeness. You have transfer portal. The transfer portal is affecting how a lot of the big. Well, really everybody, but a lot of the big schools are recruiting. You've got the conference realignment. I mean, the ACC now has a west coast arm, which would have ever thought, you know, who'd ever thought that, right?

[11:44] Kris: Yeah. Yeah.

[11:44] Ryan: And so you have all these, uh, changes that are happening right now. How. How is that affecting the college athlete experience now, you know, from all the way, even from being recruited in high school, how do you see this, you know, panning out? I mean, I feel like we could talk for hours on this.

[12:07] Speaker C: Yeah, we truly can.

[12:08] Ryan: Your thoughts on all that?

[12:10] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, let me pull up my crystal ball here. I mean, there's so much changing landscape in such a quick amount of time that it's. It's so. It's easy to even hard to kind of keep up with at times, right. Because there's so much change from a day to day basis, whether it's lawsuits or, you know, whether it's, you know, just nil deals that are kind of groundbreaking and things like that. So it's. It's really challenging to keep up with, but I'm very, very excited for the future, and I think that what we're seeing is that the reality of the situation is finally catching up.

[12:43] Kris: Right.

[12:44] Speaker C: We've for a long time understood that collegiate athletics needs to break away from this idea of amateurism.

[12:51] Kris: Right.

[12:51] Speaker C: And so now that we're kind of facing that reality, with governance we're kind of seeing a lot of things unfold and since it's been way past due, there's a lot of consequences to that as well. And so I think a lot of things that we're going to see are going to be very similar to the professional models. I think we're going to end up seeing things like salary caps and trance reporters already operating like free agency. Nil is really just, if you think about it, endorsements. That's all it is. It's really getting to this understanding of where we've actually been at for the past however many years of what athletes bring in and the revenue that they bring in, the billions of dollars every year. And how does that actually look at our equitable sort of standpoint to allow players to reap the benefits of that over the things that they're producing. And so there's so many directions we could go with this. So I'll let you.

[13:46] Ryan: Yeah, let's start. Let's start at the high school level, right. And we'll work our way up. So the high school level, you know, the transfer portal and we work with a number of high school athletes, you know, AAU teams, club teams that a lot of them want to make it to that college level, right. And they've got the I've got to go d one. Right. And their parents, some of which have played athletics in college, they were recruited under one model and like you said, that lots of changes, which just means there's a lot of catching up to how the real world works now that had to have happened.

[14:29] Kris: Right.

[14:29] Ryan: And so you have parents that were recruited and are coaching their kids to in the old way but now you have this new method of, you know, where you see a lot of the transfer portal guys that are coming from those mid majors that are getting opportunities and being able to figure out what is the right university for me, you know, power five, whatever it is. And so a lot of those changes. So if you were going back, right.

[14:58] Speaker C: Yeah.

[14:58] Ryan: Coming out as, as a senior in high school, you gotta commit and you know, you went to Kent State and you loved your, your time there. Very loyal. I mean all that stuff from the first 1st time you were on.

[15:11] Speaker C: Yeah.

[15:12] Ryan: How, like what would your mindset be knowing that this has changed? Like what advice would you give to high school athletes?

[15:21] Speaker C: Yeah, it is. It's incredibly important to have some sort of advice from someone who understands the new landscape, to be honest. Because like you're saying the landscape has changed it like astronomically. It is, it is very different in terms of how things work, even the amount of scholarships and how hard it is to go. D one is different, right. It's harder, right. Because they can go ahead and get a transfer guy who's already proven at this level and can't compete, and they have film on them and say, you know, this is a much less of a risk for us to take this guy than a high school athlete who, you know, we don't really exactly know how, who's going to, how he's going to pan out on the collegiate level. And so it's actually harder to even go d one. It's harder to go to a collegiate, you know, program. But I think one of the things, in addition to having that understanding is seeing what they're offering you. Of course, within IO, I mean, that, I wouldn't say that might not be the number one thing, but it's still very important. But I think outside opportunities as well, in terms of how are you going to be set up for life after sports? And so looking at some of the academic programs, what are some of the percentages in terms of where do people major, right. And how are those majors and those degrees helping them be successful afterwards? What are their student athlete development look like? What are some of the things and resources that they bring in so that they can build skills like financial literacy or career building or communication skills or, you know, just other skills that you might need to be successful in your job? I think that you also want to make sure that you go somewhere that has good people, right? Have some people with you who is good at judging character, at least when you go on these, these campus visits and make sure that they are, you know, true to what they're saying, they're genuine, right? Someone who can kind of assess those things because sometimes, you know, you can get a sales pitch and as a 1718 year old, somebody you're talking to a 30 year old who's been in the game or 40, 50 year old who's been in the game for however long they can get you to, you know, answer things and think, think ways that aren't necessarily the reality of the situation. And so get somebody in there with you, have a good advisor, have somebody who you trust, and as we talked about before, have that rock, that relationship with someone who's going to allow you to see sort of what these relationships, these offers and what these universities are actually talking to you about and what it actually means for you in the future. So there's so many things that you kind of need to be aware of these days. Of course, playing time is one, too. I mean, what are, what are your goals? That's, that's one thing I think you might need to set out. What are your goals? What do you want to get out of your, your college experience? Do you want it? Is the league your only thing that you're thinking about? Is it, you know, league? But also I want to be set up afterwards in terms of my career opportunities, or am I trying to really take advantage of my education? What are the things you're looking to do? Do I want to play immediately? Am I willing to go to an organization that is, you know, maybe a better program that'll kind of train me and build me up and develop me for one or two years, then I'll get on the field and have my opportunity. So decide your goals. Figure out which university studios are going to offer that, and then go from there, but also have that awareness of, you know, what's, what the landscape is looking like. And so, you know, Nio is a whole other conversation, but that's, you know, I think that's, that's important as well, for sure.

[18:44] Kris: Yeah.

[18:44] Ryan: And I think, I mean, I think you hit on it. It's, it's, what are you, what is your main goal?

[18:50] Kris: Right.

[18:50] Ryan: Is it to be on a d one team or is it to play d one and then your goals after that? Right. It's, it's perfectly okay. You know, either, either path is okay. Right. You just want to be on a d one team, then going to that power five, if you're able to get a scholarship, because it's more competitive, there's, there's increased, uh, demand and there's the same amount of supply.

[19:17] Kris: Right.

[19:18] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.

[19:18] Ryan: It's more competitive, harder to get them. But if you're just cool being on that, uh, not seeing the field for two, maybe three years.

[19:26] Kris: Yeah.

[19:27] Ryan: Cool.

[19:28] Kris: Right.

[19:28] Ryan: Nothing wrong with that. But if you're really wanting to play an impact, it might be, you know, going to a junior college or going to a mid major, knowing that you're going to grow as a person, you're going to play a higher chance of playing right away. And that's typically the best way to develop as an athlete, is to be on the field, play. It's been a while since I played.

[19:52] Speaker C: No, that doesn't change.

[19:53] Kris: Yeah. Yeah.

[19:54] Ryan: I mean, so, yeah, that's the consistent here thing in athletics. But knowing that you can transfer, you're going to know more about who you are. So where you might have gone to a Florida before now, we're looking at, hey, I know that I align more with Florida, Florida State and that's where I want to go. Right. Better fit for me not just as an athlete, but as a, as a, you know, person outside of being an athlete. Right. An education standpoint from a, you know, like you, all the things you mentioned, right. Player development and having the relationships in the network and that's going to carry me through life and all that stuff.

[20:35] Speaker C: Yeah, for sure. I mean, and I think you touched on a really good point too. Um, and before I say this, I definitely don't advise going somewhere with the mindset that you're going to transfer, but that opens up an opportunity nowadays to where you don't have to go to a Florida State or you don't have to go to one of these major power five schools because the transfer portal rules are a lot less stringent.

[20:54] Kris: Right.

[20:54] Speaker C: You can transfer whenever you need to.

[20:56] Kris: Right.

[20:57] Speaker C: And so if you can go to a place, a d, one place, wherever it might be and get on the field early and get some really good film, there's an opportunity to go to one of these, you know, big time schools. So, you know, just get some skin in the game, I suppose. But there's, it's, it's important to consider all of these, these things that we've talked about when a lot of people don't really have that wherewithal or, you know, people in their corner who are telling them these things.

[21:22] Ryan: Well, we saw with Kenyan Mitchell, right, from Toledo, you can go to a mid major and you can be a first round pick, right?

[21:30] Speaker C: Oh, yeah.

[21:31] Ryan: He wouldn't have been the same person that he is now had he not gone through some of that adversity. And then, you know, he stuck with Toledo.

[21:39] Kris: Right.

[21:39] Ryan: The coaching stayed the same, you know, and then you have, I think it was pennants, right. He was at Indiana and then came out the, the coaching staff changed and, you know, his coordinator and he needed to go where they could leverage and believed in his game and how, how to leverage that. And so you've got these options and starting at, you know, you, you could almost joke, you know, that Indiana alum are going to, you know, kill me over this one. But you could almost look at Indiana football as a mid major, right? I mean, yeah, you're in a power five, but from a performance standpoint that's unaware, you know, started and then took it to the next level. So.

[22:21] Speaker C: Yeah, for sure. For sure. And that's, that's definitely what we're seeing. I mean, interesting kind of side quest to what you said. I mean, I think that we're actually seeing a benefit from nil in terms of people staying in school, but also something that people, it's kind of the antithesis what people thought was going to happen, which it's actually helping out players, I think, in terms of the NFL.

[22:44] Kris: Right.

[22:44] Speaker C: They thought it was going to take away from the NFL. And I think what we're seeing is like a lot more people are staying in college and becoming more polished and then going into the draft, and now it's much less of a risk. Whereas so, for example, say you had somebody who was, you know, going to go in the second round or third round or maybe even the fourth round. That's where their draft stock was. They before, maybe three years ago before nil, they would probably just enter their, their name to the draft. Like, hey, I got a shot, right? But now it's like, hey, I can stay in college and actually make some money, get a degree, polish my skills and boost my draft stock and then be able to go to NFL as well. And so what we've seen in terms of numbers is, I think, you know, three years ago we had maybe 120 or something around there, 120 underclassmen who entered the draft. And then, you know, two years after that or two years ago, we had around, you know, like 80 something. And now this past year we had 50 something underclassmen. And so we're seeing a lot more people who are staying in, taking advantage of these nil opportunities but also boosting their draft stock and which is actually a more polished product for the NFL. But this also, it's an odd thing. It kind of opens up the opportunity, like when you talk about Quinton Mitchell, it opens up the opportunity for mid major guys to be seen and go to the NFL because people are staying later and so they're getting drafted a little bit older. And the guys who were mid major might not have got drafted before because of all these underclassmen who are highly rated and have a good draft grade. We're taking some of those spots now. They're staying. And so mid major has more of an opportunity to actually get drafted. And so I think that's it's a win win for all organization, NFL professional, you know, collegiate and all these organizations. So I'm loving what I'm seeing. I'm loving it.

[24:37] Ryan: Absolutely. Well, and so then the transition to nil, I think the other thing we saw was some of the interviews because working with XPe, I was, like, glued to the draft. Right. Guys going to go, did they move up and all this kind of stuff? But some of the interviews were, you know, what are you going to buy with your first check, right. And it always goes there. And you typically house all this type of stuff. But now you have athletes that have seen money, right? The check was smaller than the NFL check that they're going to get. And the smaller the check, the smaller the mistakes you make.

[25:18] Kris: Right.

[25:18] Ryan: The bigger the check, the bigger the mistakes. And so they already went through and they made their mistakes if they were going to make them. They got used to seeing commas in the bank account. And so now as they transition to a bigger check, a lot of that youth and have fun with the money has been dealt with. They're over it.

[25:41] Speaker C: Yeah.

[25:42] Ryan: You know, I think we'll see, you know, prediction here, my crystal ball. I think we're going to see athletes that are, you know, doing at a younger age in their career, smarter things with their money. Yeah. Because that temptation has been, you know, it's been dealt with.

[25:58] Speaker C: Yeah, 100%. I mean, experience trumps a lot of things.

[26:02] Kris: Right?

[26:03] Speaker C: So being able to see what to do with the money that you get at earlier age is only going to be helpful to their development. And I completely agree. I think it's important. It's way past due, right. It only makes sense to allow them to reap the benefits of what they're producing. And so them getting at it at an earlier age is going to be helpful in terms of their financial decisions and financial literacy. And I think one thing to really kind of drive home here is that these athletes need some good people in their corner, right? Those rocks or some representation, whether it's a legal advisor, to make sure that they're not getting into some of these nil deals that are going to actually hurt them and harm them in the future or whether it's, you know, understanding how to brand themselves or what to do with their money. A financial advisor.

[26:53] Kris: Right.

[26:54] Speaker C: And so we need to start affording a lot of athletes some of these, you know, these opportunities are some of these representation, I would say, to help them take advantage of these opportunities and not go through a lot of those poor decisions that someone who never had any money before and now they have millions of dollars and they don't really know what to do and they have sharks in the water, right. Trying to come at them and, you know, hey, here's this business ******* and all this stuff. They're not keeping the athletes best interests at heart. So surrounding these guys with these guys or women whatever it might be with the right, you know, kind of crowd or the right, you know, representation is going to be extremely helpful financially and developmentally and all these different things.

[27:37] Ryan: Even if it's just a mentor.

[27:38] Kris: Right.

[27:38] Ryan: A mentor, like. Like you. Like, you're really big on.

[27:42] Kris: Right.

[27:42] Ryan: That. Where you can, you know, the only. The only interest they have in you is seeing you be successful.

[27:50] Kris: Yeah.

[27:51] Ryan: Getting paid on anything. There's no financial gain there. Somebody that you can trust their opinion and. And. And go back to with those, you know, with the questions and scenarios that present themselves.

[28:03] Speaker C: 100%. 100%. And I'm. I wonder, you know, I want to say, like, athletic departments, they have a lot of stuff that they're dealing with, but this is something that I think that they really need to heavily consider. And I think a lot of places are considering. Like, we have mentors here, but not to the capacity that we're discussing right now. Like, we need to have people who have possibly gone to the NFL or done other things from your school possibly coming back and being mentors to these athletes who are experiencing some of those same things and, um, someone that they can trust.

[28:38] Kris: Right. It's.

[28:38] Speaker C: It's easier to trust somebody who's gone through something that you're. You're currently going through, and they. They found a way to be successful. And so I think that we need to kind of afford these athletes, those. Those mentors.

[28:49] Kris: Right.

[28:50] Speaker C: And also, what we're seeing with a lot of, you know, in terms of collectives, I think we're seeing some of these things.

[28:57] Kris: Right.

[28:57] Speaker C: We're seeing people who are coming on, advising them on nil deals and garnering nil deals for them. But also, what's going to be something I think needs to be a standard is having some attorneys on your team or in your department, in your collective or whatever it might be, who are making sure that these contracts are to the benefit of the athlete and they're not getting taken advantage of or exploited. And so advisors in terms of attorneys, but advisors in terms of maybe some financial people also who are being brought on as staff for these collectives or these universities, whether it's in house or out of house, I think are going to be imperative to kind of make sure that these athletes are, you know, doing the best that they can for themselves.

[29:46] Ryan: Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. You mentioned one thing, revenue sharing. Before. It was. It was a little. So where. Where do you see that going? And is there a way to make it work? And then we saw, I forget. I think it was Dartmouth, the men's basketball team trying to unionize and all that type of stuff. So two issues that are there, college athletics sometimes don't. One gets more pressed than the other. But your thoughts on those two?

[30:21] Speaker C: I think it's inevitable at this point that we see the athletes being compensated through revenue share. I need to. It's hard, like I said, it's hard to keep up to date with all the things that are happening. We had something come out with Virginia and their laws coming out with just was it schools are allowed to directly pay the athletes now? And so there's cases out in California with the Johnson case that are fighting for employment. There's several cases out that are suing the NCAA to make sure that we're able to pay the athletes with revenue sharing and things like that. And so I think, you know, very soon here, we're going to see some decisions made in terms of which way we're going to be going one way or the other. And at this point, if you look at a lot of what the experts are saying, a lot of, you know, lawyers, a lot of people who are in athletics been there for a long time, who are working in conferences, we see them preparing for a future with revenue share. And the universities and departments that aren't preparing for it, I think are going to be at a disadvantage, to be honest, once some of these changes do go into place because they're not going to have the infrastructure, the framework to make it happen for however many years. And so the people who are making sure that those changes are happening now in their department are going to have a huge advantage in terms of recruiting or just allowing their athletes to get opportunities. But exactly how it's gonna happen, that's, I have no idea how it's exactly gonna happen, but I do see it coming, you know, to fruition here. Finally, the athletes are gonna get some.

[31:59] Ryan: What it looks like is, who knows?

[32:02] Speaker C: But it changed week by week, month by month. I mean, I'm every day trying to, I'm scouring Twitter, I'm scouring law cases. You know, I'm following people who are, like, in the courtrooms arguing for these things. And, you know, it's changing all the time. So even with my collegiate athletics course I'm going to teach, I can't even, you know, get a set thing until, like, probably the day before the day of.

[32:24] Kris: Right.

[32:25] Speaker C: So I'm still, I'm keeping up with the things, but it's, it's a lot.

[32:29] Kris: It's.

[32:29] Speaker C: It's a complicated and fluid situation that has sort of this inevitable end, but no one's going to be able to tell you exactly how it's going to happen for sure.

[32:39] Ryan: So what about this Dartmouth and the unionizing and all that type of stuff? And it was on the nil premise, I think this is. To me, this is a tough one for them to justify. I get what they're trying to do, but I don't know. What are your thoughts on it?

[32:59] Speaker C: I have. With all the things coming out and with sort of what I was going through, it's been hard to keep up with a lot of these. But Dartmouth, I know it's a private institution.

[33:08] Kris: Right.

[33:09] Speaker C: And so it's. It's going to be different how that plays out with a lot of other public universities, but also, it's Ivy League school that, you know, necessarily doesn't bring in the revenue that a lot of these power five schools do. And so I think that it's just kind of. It's going to help in terms of setting the stage for the standard of collegiate athletics. Whether the Dartmouth athletes have the. You know, I don't know. It's hard to say because I'm. I'm all for it. You know, anything that works towards athletes being able to benefit from some of the things they're producing, I'm all for. But some of the specifics, I can't.

[33:46] Kris: I don't know. I don't.

[33:47] Speaker C: Can't dive too deep into it since I haven't. I've kept too close attention to the Dartmouth case. Yeah.

[33:52] Kris: Yeah.

[33:52] Ryan: Well, you know, I think if it leads to the Ivy League saying, yes, you can. You can participate in nil, because right now, they. I believe they have or still have that. The hands off. Right. Like, you can't. You know, you can't participate in it.

[34:08] Kris: Yeah.

[34:08] Ryan: It's to that. Great. Because. And I don't know why they. It's just, you know, hard to. Hard to imagine why they wouldn't. Right. Just from a competitive side of things. Yeah, but, you know, you said before, it's endorsements. That's what nil is.

[34:25] Kris: Right.

[34:26] Ryan: So how can you put a price on a nil activity that's blanket across sport, you know, a gender.

[34:38] Speaker C: Yeah.

[34:39] Ryan: I mean, the value is different to each business. The athletes, you know, don't have the same value from a marketing standpoint. And so I just don't know how. You know, I don't know how you do that.

[34:55] Kris: You know? Yeah.

[34:56] Ryan: Like saying the same thing in the NFL, like, if you're gonna sign up, you know, you know, a deodorant commercial or, you know, the Troy Palamalu the head and shoulders commercial. Everybody that does that gets the same amount of money. I mean, it's. I don't know how you can. You can, you know, do that.

[35:15] Speaker C: Yeah, I'm 100% with you. I don't think there's a good way to go about a generalized law or rule for all nil deals.

[35:25] Kris: Right.

[35:25] Speaker C: Cause it just doesn't make sense. The magnitude of the value of the athlete is way different in different markets and different genders and different sports and different positions. And so there's too many variables and dynamics that you have to take into account to write even a contract.

[35:41] Kris: Right.

[35:41] Speaker C: And so I think that a blanket rule or law is just not, you know, what you want to do. The interesting thing is that there are so many different laws, though, across the board in terms of state laws that it gets really tricky for brands and corporations to actually get involved because what they do in Florida might not necessarily be okay for them to engage with an athlete in, you know, Nevada or wherever it might be.

[36:09] Kris: Right.

[36:09] Speaker C: And so it. That's, I think, the only good argument right now in terms of having a blanket law.

[36:17] Kris: Right.

[36:17] Speaker C: But I don't think that they should even with that.

[36:20] Kris: Right.

[36:20] Speaker C: It's just the brands are. Have to figure it out because it only make. It only helps them, obviously, to be able to be. Have that. That flexibility to create a different. A deal or endorsement deal with athletes. So that's a tricky part about it. But, yeah, there's a blanket law would only be too restrictive on athletes, just like we're trying to break away from now with a lot of things.

[36:43] Ryan: Yeah, yeah, I agree. I agree. So I've got to bring it up, man. Is the. Is the missing the football playoff, is that fueling the team this year to. To make it back up to the top?

[36:59] Speaker C: Oh, I imagine it is. I imagine it is. I mean, I'm. I don't want to say for. I've been a mentor to a lot of the guys over there, and they're hungry. I mean, that's. That's something like we talked about before when it just being a competitor at an elite level and the mindset that you have that you have to have that doesn't stop when you get denied. That only gets, you know, hungry. It only gets stronger.

[37:25] Kris: Right.

[37:25] Speaker C: And so I imagine the team as a whole is preparing for something that is going to perhaps shock the world to a degree that's like, okay, yeah, we actually need to make sure that they are in this playoffs which the expansion. I highly doubt that they won't be there anyways, but to just not leave a doubt in people's mind that they obviously deserve to be there. But I think this year is certainly going to be a statement, I believe, and we're gearing up to do it. We got a lot of good players and still with the same, you know, coaching staff, coach Norvell is doing huge.

[38:02] Ryan: Right. There's a lot of movement, there's a lot of. A lot of rumors and, oh, this is where I want to be, so.

[38:09] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, oh, yeah, yeah. There's. There's a good mindset, just like we talked about before with Jim Harbaugh's sort of contagious attitude and mindset and understanding of the game and understanding what it takes to be elite. I think Norvell has a very similar effect on the culture as a whole in terms of athletics. But of course, with the players, and I think they are on one accord, they're climbing to the victory here and trying to figure out how to win a championship. The CFP here, I think they have what it takes to do it for sure.

[38:44] Ryan: Well, I'm looking forward to watching, man. Chris, I appreciate you. I appreciate your time. I'm so happy for you that you got that battle out of the way and all the learning that you derived from it, but appreciate you coming on. Until next time.

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